Stanislav Grof: We are really very hard entangled in the material world

Dr. Stanislav Grof - one of the most controversial scientists in modern psychology. Numerous supporters put it on par with the fathers of psychoanalysis, Freud and Jung and talk about strong, with nothing comparable experience, which can be achieved during a session of the transpersonal. Founder Alex Dream Industries Ostroukhov talked to scientists about the paradigm shift that has already occurred, but have not yet been recognized by official science, about whether the earth will survive its main transition and the love will save the world.

- Dr. Grof, I would like to start this interview with the most, perhaps, difficult issue, namely, what is love? What could you say about it not only from biological evolution and wider - what is love as a factor in the expansion of consciousness and human evolution as a whole?

- Love is unique to a variety of forms, ranging from the everyday romance to what is called in Greek agape - love the space, which is a kind of fundamental force that is built into the very structure of the universe, and opens us to a mystical experience. I believe that love, in all its diversity of its manifestations, is absolutely necessary for mankind has been able to survive. For too long, humanity has been driven by violence and insatiable greed, and now I think the time has come when we simply can not afford such behavior model that focuses on competition and belief in the survival of only the fittest. The survival now depends on whether we can tame these forces do not find support in them, and in love. As the experience of my work, such a transformation is possible, I have seen it in other people, and in itself: indeed possible to turn in the direction of orientation on competition and greed to the realization that the necessary synergy required a course of action, by virtue of which a person satisfies their demands and requests of others, and some questions of a higher order.

Working through its own programs, such as the trauma of birth, programs laid down in childhood by parents, the liberation of man from such imprints leads him to a more Taoist perception of the world in which there is no need to implement ambitious projects, overcome obstacles and defeat enemies, thus compensating for feeling worthlessness. Man begins, rather, to look into what is happening, embedded in the flow of energy - it's like in the martial arts, or in surfing: surfer conforms because his movement with the wave. This is closer to what in Taoism is called Wuwei to inaction, to stay in the flow. And here is interesting here is that when such a course of action replaces the attempt, they say, to bend the world for themselves, then do we begin to argue, and the world is becoming more friendly, and begins to give us the right information, the right people, and often money. We achieve great results with less effort, and at the same time, our activities will not only serve the interests of an individual or group of individuals, but also serves as a kind of higher purpose.

- It seems that the Earth is now going through a transition period, people consciously involved in the process of evolution in support of creative direction, to ensure that contribute to social development, while already realizing that we are the dominant driving force behind the evolution of the planetary. Coming a long way from single-celled organisms, organize and cooperate in living processes, we are now a growing tendency for co-operation, more interaction between us and other species, and we may be able to ever get beyond the solar system and to collaborate with life existing on other stars. Scientific discoveries you made, appear to play an important role, contributing to the development of consciousness towards a more holistic, whole perception of the world.

- In my books, I especially pay attention to the prospect of working with those states that I have named, and holotropic which represent a significant subgroup of non-ordinary states of consciousness. This work is of great importance for our survival as holotropic state reveal the origins of violence and greed in people and promote transformation. One of the main problems for the modern man - it is the feeling of loneliness, alienation, work well with holotropic states allows to come to understand ourselves as an integral part of all living things, to find a sense of belonging, to build relationships with other people and with nature, to understand that our house - it the whole world, and live in it, based on the positions of co-operation.

I had the great honor to work for two and a half years with Gregory Bateson, a remarkable scientist, the scope of scientific activity which is difficult to describe in one word - he calls himself a "generalist." He explores issues related to systems theory, psychology, anthropology, and so on. Incidentally, the term "genetics" invented by his father. Gregory Bateson talked a lot about his disagreement with the idea of ​​Darwinian survival of the fittest, illustrating his point by many examples from the history of evolution reveals a picture rather synergies and cooperation, rather than competition. Imagine, for example, lawn, where horses graze: to grow a beautiful lawn, the grass should be cut and ground - to fertilize. This is what makes a horse: they are eating grass, plowed ground hoofs and fertilize it, and so are some synergistic relationships. And such examples, he cites numerous, showing that the driving forces of evolution have often been not only and not so much competition and struggle for survival, and as symbiotic synergies.

- Modern society, perhaps inclined to consider man the crown of creation, and the pinnacle of evolution, however, is not whether a person is rather a kind of transition, when viewed in terms of the ongoing evolutionary development? After all, if we consider ourselves the final link, then stop to see your place in the overall long-term evolution? What could you say regarding how we stay tuned to the awareness of themselves as part of the global evolutionary process?

- Many of those who choose for themselves a deep self-knowledge, work with the unconscious - both individually and collectively - have come to the realization that we are living in times of crisis. Never before has one species - man - did not have the ability to cause such damage to the environment. Even after the most serious conflicts, including military, ecosystems were restored after some time. Now the situation is quite different - there is, for example, the threat of radioactive contamination. Humanity stands at a crossroads of evolution, and we have to make any kind of an evolutionary leap, perhaps become a new view, or close face the threat of extinction, and it can affect not only us, but also many other species.

- Non whether occurring including the current scientific paradigm, which could be called one of the guiding forces in our world? I would like to hear your opinion because you somewhat distanced from the scientific establishment, at least in its materialistic and deterministic incarnation. Do your research in the field of psychotherapy and holotropic states can be called in any sense heretical voice. We know what happened with the scientists who dared to push the boundaries of knowledge - just remember Wilhelm Reich. His laboratory was destroyed, the works destroyed or confiscated, and he was arrested, and all that - with the approval of the authorities. The scientific community has not come for him. As a consequence, there is still very little scientists admit to himself skeptical attitude to approve the of the reality, admit "heresy." Remember what it was a shock when Stephen Hawking admitted that he was wrong about black holes? What a surprise and caused a misunderstanding? What do you think, what is the role of heresy in the development of modern science?

- You pointed out the need for a paradigm shift and change the scientific world view as a whole. In fact, this has already happened, but this fact has not yet received the recognition. I have already mentioned Darwinian approach in its most simplistic interpretation (survival of the fittest, and the like). And Gregory Bateson, and many other scientists in their research came to the conclusion that evolution is not mechanistic basically that we can say that it is driven by some intelligence of a higher order. I'm talking about a kind of spiritual strength. If you look in the context of Darwinian psychology at Freud's idea of ​​primitive instincts as the main driving forces of the soul, then this idea can serve as a kind of science-based justification of competition and selfishness, which are understood as a kind of standard of behavior, due to the very nature of man.

Today the work in the field of consciousness studies give a very different picture of the human psyche. Yes, of course, this mentality has a dark side, everything about Freud, but it is - nothing more than a smokescreen behind which is hidden transpersonal. And ultimately, we find that human nature is divine rather than animals. We are able to remain in conjunction with the Atman, one universal mind, to discover universal love, to see that the layer of Darwinian and Freudian concepts - this is just one of the obstacles that we must overcome. It is to some extent working, it can direct people to their work, but this is not necessary and not necessary, at least for the purposes of self-exploration and self-transformation. It can be overcome and it can grow.

- That is, if you ignore the situation in the scientific community, it turns out that the most serious problems related to the fact that a person perceives themselves as something entirely separate from the so-called outside world does not see the relationship. It is interesting that you are talking about Freud. I've never been particularly close to his approach, which is, I think, is no different excess optimism. He believed that autonomy is conscious - is an illusion, and wrote that to be human means to rebel against what is happening. We see ourselves as conscious, self-defined, we believe that their own decisions and seem eager for this autonomy, in spite of all relationships, integrity of creation, which shows us life.

Freud had a significant impact ideas of Spinoza, which, however, adhered much more holistic views than Freud, who, although he felt his influence, did not leave from his holism almost nothing. Spinoza wrote that a person believes himself to be free just because it is aware of their desires, but is only a form of manifestation of a single, that is called God or nature. He says that to be a man - means to participate in the illusion that we - independent units. This places a heavy burden on us and emotionally and politically.

Hence the envy and anger, all of these manifestations. And it is strange that in a much more far-standing our era has had a much more holistic outlook, while as we approach the XXI century way of thinking is more deterministic, more and more narrow. We raised the issue of science, but more and more it becomes clear that there is another institution that affects the sense of isolation of man from all living things - organized religion. I would like to hear your opinion, what is the impact on the situation of organized religion in the world and how people manage it.

- Where, in fact, just a few questions. As for Freud, of course, he was old and unhappy man, but above all - a great pioneer. He was a hero of mine, in fact, thanks to him I became interested in psychology, but as for the world - yes, he tried to stick to a very narrow, materialistic approach to science. Some of his considerations with regards to the nature of civilization and religion, in my opinion, to a large extent represent reductionism. For example, treatment of religion as an obsessive-compulsive neurosis associated with anal impulses, perception of religious rituals as the rituals associated with obsessive-compulsive behavior.

Transpersonal psychology is very far removed from that. For us, it has become clear that the basis of religion is visionary experience, the one who experienced their founders - transpersonal experience, and in this sense, the ritual is something deep secondary. The essence of the religion and its origins - in the revelation "first hand", in the experience of the transcendent. Here we can recall the Buddha, who after much meditation and austerities experienced enlightenment under the Bodhi tree and attained liberation, Jesus in the wilderness, a vision the Apostle Paul on the Damascus road, Rev. Moses and the burning bush, Mohammed and his mystical vision ... that such experiments and any religion - from the direct experience of the transcendent. When religion becomes organized, it is to the fore quite different: money, property, privacy, control over the people - that is, the secular character of the considerations, and we have organized religion, completely divorced from the source. In such cases, genuine spirituality is often preserved only in mystical ways. For example, the Christian mystics, Sufis, the Hasidim, Kabbalists - those who still have access to a mystical revelation, from which religion is born.

With regard to the religious mainstream, then it is very difficult to find a genuine spirituality based on personal experience. When we were with Abraham Maslow, Tony Syutichem and Jim Feydimanom began to develop transpersonal psychology and formulate the basic principles of the new psychology, which would include spirituality, we did not expect to combine the tenets of organized religion and science, however, we know that science at its best and transpersonal Experience not contradict each other. That is, once a person has the potential to experience the entire spectrum of such phenomena, why science is not to study? This kind of experience is very specific impact on human life, and they also represent something that can be studied, respectively, we can combine spirituality and science in their best forms.

You know, Joseph Campbell, arguably the greatest of all researchers myths came from a family of Irish Catholics. He sarcastically belonged to fundamentalist interpretations of religions and once remarked that if you accept the Immaculate Conception as a problem from the field of gynecology and the Promised Land - as a property, it means that you have a really big problem. And he also said that the deity, to be useful, require transparency to the transcendent. In other words, different religions have different archetypal figures and images that, from the point of view of Campbell, indicate that something beyond them, on an abstract source from which all came from which all religion. If archetypal images are losing their transparency, if we start to worship any particular manner, and not abstract, not the absolute, which is the source of all, in this case, religious problems. Because such religion unites people who want to believe so, and not otherwise, in which case the separation occurs automatically: one group of people opposed to the other group of people.

Even within a single religion, different groups may conflict with each other, such as in Ireland, where centuries of bloodshed and Catholics, and Protestants. Sunnis and Shiites killing each other. We can not say that this helps us in religious life. But the Latin word religio means a compound that has been divided. Such a strategy organized religion divides the world, and this is very dangerous, is part of the problem that exists in our world.

Transpersonal psychology is not interested in organized religion, and direct experience of mystical, transpersonal. Such experiments are similar to that experienced mystics, such experiences are comprehensive and do not divide people on religious grounds. And it really helps, because it promotes the human community and understanding the value of spirituality and spiritual search. It does not matter in what form will be invested outside this spiritual quest, whether it be Christianity, Sufism, Hassidism - is equal area. That is boring to be a world in which only one nation, one language, one and the same music ...

People, however, are often not happy with this diversity and choose for themselves the commitment to any one particular form of its manifestation. A similar phenomenon we can observe in the non-religious context, for example, the communist and capitalist societies. Chinese Communism assumed the same accommodation, same clothes, same food for all - melancholy! But under capitalism, wherever you come, you will see there is a petrol station Shell, Kentucky Fried Chicken, McDonald's - everywhere one and the same set. At the same time in the same cities, there is a great old architecture, but it is limited outside of the historic center and on the periphery of the same type built and uninteresting buildings, the same, wherever you look.

Accordingly, with regard to device space, as we understand it, the diversity of its external manifestations contains at its core some deep primordial unity, while the examples that I cited above, relating to the monotony of the world and the illusion of separation, whereby altogether lost the feeling of a common underlying unity. At this point in the world, many groups who were oppressed, fighting for autonomy, such as the Hawaiians, the ancient people, which seeks to re-learn their native language, preserve their heritage, hula dance, and the like. Indigenous peoples of America also fighting to preserve their traditions, many of which were suppressed by Christianity, and the tradition of the earth were very, very natural, and has long been banned.

- It seems that organized religions tend to infiltrate the political system, to lobby government agencies, as if religion create simple narrative of life and the world in which politics are due to the fact that they have nothing more to offer the voters, and they do not have to deal with social issues a language other than the one that was created inside of religions and religious sects. Religion, it seems to me, has always been involved in politics, but not surprising to observe a picture in society that is supposed to be focused on democratic values? Today we are witnessing an extremely strange, deep cooperation ruling forces and organized religion.

- You see, a mystical perception of the world, based on spiritual experience, it is not contrary to scientific knowledge. And dogmas of organized religion - contrary. Galileo was forced to recant his beliefs, Giordano Bruno, Joan of Arc was burned at the stake, and only after many centuries the Church has apologized for it. And in today's world, where the population is growing rapidly, and AIDS has taken epidemic proportions, it is very difficult to take an organized religion seriously, if it considers that the important thing is what you need to fight - is the spread of contraceptives.

In his book "The Tao of Physics" Fritjof Capra has shown that the opening at the turn of 19-20 centuries of radioactivity and X-ray marked the beginning of the convergence of the concepts of modern physics and the great spiritual traditions of the East. Spiritual traditions, especially Tantric contain the same ideas. Tantric tradition possessed an unusually highly developed scientific knowledge. For example, the age of the universe, it is estimated in the billions of years, and modern astronomy, not in six thousand years, which supposedly has the world created in one day - the idea is not received at the moment no scientific evidence.

Scientists have developed a system Tantrikas decimal calculus, including a zero, a highly developed physics of vibration. At the same time present and spiritual system, focused on violent self-knowledge, and the arts, focused on spiritual development. In a sense, this system was a forerunner of what we strive to do now - namely, to combine spirituality in its best manifestations, and advanced science. And it's hard to do. But to connect science and the dogmas of organized religion does not work, and it does not matter whether Newton-Cartesian science or the science of the new paradigm. An important role is played here by a total misunderstanding, a completely artificial confusion - such as Paradise sort must be in heaven, and in heaven we are now flying the Hubble Telescope, and it did not record the Lord, nor angels playing the harp, we , therefore, we proved that religion is wrong.

We also now know that the temperature in the center of the earth is higher than on the surface of the sun, and among the molten iron and nickel are unlikely to have Satan. IPhone can now show us any place on the earth's surface. The first travelers in longstanding century sought and paradise on earth too, and did not find, but found a lot of things of beauty, and we know that this earth is not heaven. Huxley saw this as a fundamental error, because the concept of paradise is ontologically true, represent a state of mind. In other words, the experience of these states you must change the consciousness. Many people in unusual states of experiencing experience heaven or hell, but to the physical world, he has not the slightest relationship. Thus, between spirituality and science, there is no competition, they are not fighting for territory, and the only scientific discipline that may make informed judgments about issues such as heaven and hell - people who study these states the manner in which they are experienced.

- In your work you have always encouraged people to ensure that they followed his roots were in the depths of yourself, your psyche. And in your own search you explored many new and uncharted territories. From your perspective, is it possible to do something that would break the deadlock in human society rooted dogmatism, hierarchy and aggressiveness?

- We are really very hard entangled in the material world and tend to believe that happiness is measured by money, social status, etc., and this is, by and large, an illusion. You can reach unprecedented heights of material and at the same time still be unhappy. For example, billionaire Howard Hughes ended his days in a penthouse in the Bahamas, in the darkness, gathering their own urine - it seems unlikely that all of these billions of dollars greatly helped him in terms of quality of life. Or, for example, Onassis - he also somehow not particularly levitate. As for the spiritual traditions, they laid, primarily, that the basic idea that happiness and inner peace is achieved through inner work, through a process of transformation that leads us to the ability to enjoy being our ownership, ownership of consciousness. If such a fundamental connection with all that we have built, all other benefits are perceived as a sort of added bonus, as a gift, but if it is not, on their own material goods, how many of them we may courted, will not help us to gain a sense of fullness life.

Unfortunately, the materialist approach is used to assess the quality of life on the scale of entire countries - we use as a measure of gross national product and to give priority to the issues of economic growth. In the developed countries remains high divorce rate, high suicide rate, and we can not say that the material well-being in any significant way to improve living standards. The standard of living - it is the quality of life, and it is determined by our inclusion in existence rather than income. You can eat simple food, walking barefoot along the seashore, to listen the cries of gulls, watch the sunset and feel happy, but you can languish from boredom in the luxurious surroundings, filling the depression alcohol and dreaming about suicide. It seems that we have not yet come to understand this idea and understanding of this comes in the process of self-discovery, self-transformation.

- That is the accumulation of wealth is the externalization of the problem?

- This is what existential philosophy called "autoproektsiya": now I'm bad with my life that something is wrong, what can I do, how do I get there, where it will be good - for that I need a hundred thousand dollars, a million dollars , a bigger house, a better car, to become a senator, get a degree ... That is the desire to escape from the prison of their own unconscious translates into concrete plans for life and they are linear: I will move here in this area, overcoming obstacles and defeat the enemies. Results there may be two: either we reach the goal, as set sights too high or failed, and continue to think that would be happy to reach it, or, even worse, we achieve that was to bring us happiness, but or a million dollars, or senatorial seat or graduation rate does not change in any significant way our sense of life.

And it turns out that the real, full-blooded life for us all the time somewhere in the future, it does not exist in the present, and we are waiting for this future, which finally will be good. I've worked with people who have worked hard for decades to get things done, and having achieved, the next day fell into depression because their lives are not magically transformed, and they have always believed that it would happen. Joseph Campbell was comparing it, in order to climb to the top of the stairs and find that it leaned against the wrong wall. Nevertheless, the quality of life, and happiness, we continue to be measured in material terms, in terms of gross national product.

- It is interesting that in modern culture is difficult to detect any system that would be sharp and sustained focus on human potential. It seems that Freud said that the cure of neurosis - is the return of the patient's everyday unhappiness?

- Freud during therapy sought to relieve the suffering of the neurotic state of emergency and return it to the daily suffering - not a very daunting task, agree. At the same time, working with tools that give us a mystical experience, we can really truly improve the quality of our existence in this world.

- However, the usual forms of psychotherapy is not something that does not hand over their positions, and continue to spread increasingly, capturing all the new people and forcing them into a system that can neither reveal our potential, or improve the quality of life. Perhaps this question will seem too radical, but not whether people reject such external forms of therapy in favor of a more holistic approach that will integrate our inner mystical experience?

- Well, I'll tell you what I think about psychiatry. I understand that many people may not like it, and I myself do not like to say so, but in psychiatry we often see a tendency to suppress the symptom. From insomnia sleeping pills appointed from overstimulation - tranquilizers, depression - antidepressants and so on. But the fact that the suppression of symptom - it is not therapy. In medicine, psychiatry - is the branch of medicine, there are two possible situations when given symptomatic treatment: First, the reasons for the treatment of disease, if necessary to facilitate this occurs when the patient's discomfort. Secondly, with incurable diseases, when the only thing we can do - is to relieve symptoms. In somatic medicine, it might look something like this: a patient heat to bring the temperature down, the patient should be put on ice, causing the temperature of why temperature - does not matter. Such a superficial approach is common in psychiatric practice.

At the same time, there are areas that deal with the causes of our state, there are deeper approaches to psychotherapy. However, the problem lies in the fact that all kinds of schools - a great variety, and each - his understanding of the main driving forces of the human psyche, the causes of the symptoms, the values ​​of these symptoms and the necessary course of action. The same phobia behaviorist and Freudian be treated quite differently. The alternative in holotropic states will focus on our inner healer, the inner healing first. In most schools, it is assumed that you first need to understand the problem of the mind, then come up with a strategy to address it. For example, in Freudian therapy, which I have studied, the method of free association, interpretation, even therapeutic use of silence, and so on.

As holotropic states, they work about as a kind of internal radar that detects areas of the unconscious, which contain the most powerful emotional charge, and these areas are beginning to surface. Man lives appropriate emotions, memories, releasing the accumulated energy, the symptoms disappear during the stay experience, and this is a process driven by some inner mind - you just maintain what happens, you give it birth, giving develop healing therapeutic process, which is inherent in its own mind.

Carl Jung spoke of the process of individuation. The therapist - this is not the main character, the therapist - is not the one who on the basis of his brilliant insights of all patient and explain everything right. From the therapist's presence is required smart, intelligent support that is born. In Jungian technique of active imagination conscious ego enters into a kind of dialectical interaction with the higher aspect of the person, which Jung called the Self. This uses language characters, and the process of healing takes place inside the person inside, while the physician performs only as a facilitator rather than a master of an event, no surgeon. Incidentally, even in the surgery recovery largely depends on the body, but all credit attributed to the surgeon who performed the active part.

- In the sixties and seventies of last century was dominated by two points of view on the use of psychedelics: one supports the free and uncontrolled experiments with psychedelics, the other - their scientific research in accordance with strict rules. Now, it seems, it remained only two. At the same time society it seems forgotten that for many thousands of years of human history, people have successfully experimented with psychedelics, without any reference to medicine or science in a variety of uncontrolled situations.

First came the ban on psychedelics, after which any serious work with them has become extremely difficult. And now we seem to try again to put them on their feet, but in the framework of a faceless and rigid scientific outlook and modern medicine, while receiving psychedelic ritual or scientific context just gives a person access to such expertise, which fundamentally rejects metaphysics modern science and the industrial mass culture.

What's bothering me is that we do not take into account the history of psychedelics in its entirety - I mean, not you specifically, but in general, the scientific community, which is interested in psychedelic research. As if we strive to abandon the huge historical heritage associated with the use of psychedelic drugs, and their use in the clinical context - it turns out that the tool that gives us access to other levels of perception, including the transpersonal dimension, and that has always been an integral part of a holistic process of human evolution, we are dehumanizing and placed in a laboratory, and the laboratory - it is an integral part of the scientific organization, which is inherent rigidity of the materialist worldview. It turns out that everyone who uses psychedelics is a laboratory context, we are labeled as drug addicts. I do not want to say that this is some kind of conspiracy, I just want to say that leaves a fundamental part of the discourse, and it is about the fact that psychedelics - that is our human right, it is - our social right, simply because for thousands of years, they It has been part of human history.

- Well noticed. At the moment, we know that in many cultures herbal psychedelics were used in religious ceremonies. In the US, the problem lies in the fact that the right to freedom of religion enshrined in the Constitution, and thus unconstitutional ban on psychedelics. It realized many years ago and have made an exception for the Native American Church, which in its ritual use peyote. But this is unconstitutional, since the principle of equality of rights should protect not only the minority, but the majority. Do not let something Native Americans and not to allow the same Anglo-Saxons. In order not to delve into these issues were mainly engaged in catching those who produces and sells psychedelic, avoiding venturing what is called a precedent process - because in this process are people like Alan Watts, I couple Shulgins Harvard could tell, that in this case it is really a religious activity, and that it has many hundreds of years, still practiced in preliterate societies, and that it contains a healing tradition.

During the last forty years, he acted ban on the use of psychedelics for spiritual or therapeutic purposes and exceptions to this rule was not enough. Therefore, from a certain point of view, what is happening now can be called progress - at Harvard University, Johns Hopkins University, California State University, State University of New York, the University of California at San Francisco, University of Arizona now operate psychedelic research programs, some of which are repeated our work with patients in the terminal stages of cancer where psychedelics were used to alleviate the fear of death, and change the experience of dying. A study at Johns Hopkins University found that psilocybin can induce mystical experience that this sacrament, if you want. A Canadian Jessica Rochester, with which we have had joint training, got permission to conduct rituals with ayahuasca, and now welcome Ayahuasca ritual context, is no longer an offense. This ban on the use of Ayahuasca ritual is conserved. That is starting to get the recognition of the fact that taking psychedelics - is a religious activity, albeit unusual for the Christian community or any other community, but it has a long century the use of religious and spiritual contexts. This, of course, religious activities, and its suppression is the suppression of religious freedom. While the US and the strong influence of Christian fundamentalism, the law supports all religions - we have the Sufis, Buddhists, Native Americans and other groups of believers, and the Constitution apply to everyone. Now in the US, too, attempts to legitimize the use of Ayahuasca ritual purposes.

Once I took part in the ceremony of Potawatomi Indians, which was used peyote - the Indians were allowed to use it, and they invited me to the ceremony and four Americans. And this was legal, while in other situations with psychedelics was very problematic. So it is quite a shady area, as there is no doubt that the responsible intake of psychedelics during the ritual is a matter of genuine religious activity. I do not know how things are in Russia, but in the United States with this there is a real problem, since the Constitution guarantees the right to freedom of religion.

- You mentioned another very interesting topic, namely: work with patients in the terminal stage of the disease and alleviate their fear of death through the psychedelic experience. And then I have a question: fear of death all people, not only the terminally ill ...

- Are you familiar with the book of Becker's "Denial of Death"? It all described with the utmost clarity.

- Fear of death is inherent in every person, but it seems that the scientific community allows you to deal with this fear only for the terminally ill. However, I assume that the state of deadly disease they brought just that, while still in good health, they, like most of us, have not been able somehow to face this fear of death. Again, if you have any fear that we will be able to use psychedelics in working with terminally ill, while those who are not terminally ill, but is faced with the same set of problems, will not be able to access experiments of this kind?

- See, here it is necessary to be realistic. When we conducted legal research, to receive permission to use psychedelic drugs to the patient, who was going to die, it was a lot easier than to get permission to use them for educational purposes by healthy people.

- And it is in the 60s?

- I came to the US in 1967, the resolution on the use of psychedelics for training purposes we got, but it was very hard, and get permission to use them in their work with the terminally ill was relatively easy. It was assumed that they would still die, respectively, can not stand on ceremony. Again, there are the realities of life - the law is the law, and whether you agree with him or not, it must be observed, otherwise there will be problems. Unfortunately, in the sixties hysterical reaction of legislators actually killed legal research because scientists have had to comply with the law. And on the street consumption is not affected, teens still bought their dose on the street, and a ban only added appeal. When we carried out the study, we received a call from the National Institute of Mental Health, and asked what to do, how to deal with rising consumption among young people. Our answer is they do not like, we said that you need to create a network of centers where those who and so something will be on the street, would take pure substances under the supervision of, and it would give a valuable material that would help to understand the effects of psychedelics on the human psyche. In the meantime, street teenager knows about psychedelics more than professionals. Of course, our advice was not heeded, however, would have to act under such scheme: pure substance, under the supervision of the people, who are so much eager to get such an experience, they are ready to receive it in the other, much more dangerous circumstances.

- But you will agree that, if in addition to the clinical and scientific use of psychedelic drugs prevent their use in controlled religious and therapeutic context, it will have a positive impact on our society and the future that awaits him?

- We've already talked about it, yes, it will provide a legitimate tool for those people who are seeking a spiritual experience. That's what psychedelics and used. Interestingly, if you take, for example, shamanism, we see that healing and spirituality is integral. And in ancient Greece, for example, stay in the church, and was seen as a healing and spiritual experience. Then there was separation of medicine and religion, but a truly effective healing work and will always be spiritual work as well. I was educated in the field of clinical psychiatry, I was looking for a powerful tool that has allowed to go into the depths of the unconscious, and I found that when people find the roots of their problems, then there is a spiritual revelation, and here we can not say that this is - healing and here it is - a spiritual search. Spiritual and philosophical search may seem even more interesting, and although people come to therapy, it will have to take it as a side effect, while the basic process is self-exploration and spiritual search. Andrew Weil in his book "The natural mind," writes that the need for transcendental experiences - this is the most powerful driving force of the human mind, it is stronger than sex, which Freud attached such great importance. If access to the transcendental experiences there, the desire it takes a variety of deviant forms - depending occur, alcoholism, etc.

- That is the externalization is due to the impossibility of the inner workings, the internal self-examination?

- Yes.

- Then it turns out that our health care system should be taken into consideration and spiritual matters, but this is not noticeable.

- In my opinion, now is a change of paradigm. Thomas Kuhn in his work on the structure of scientific revolutions wrote that science in its historical development takes certain steps, certain periods, which is accompanied by a particular worldview - he calls it a paradigm system metaphysical implication and beliefs, as well as assessment methods and strategies of scientific studies. During such periods, scientists are busy with what he calls "normal science" - they solve problems within the currently approved scientific worldview. But at some point, new data, new observations that the existing paradigm can not explain - for example, the Michelson-Morley experiment, which led to the creation of the theory of relativity, the discovery of radioactivity, X-rays, etc. And it is evident that the old paradigm can not explain the new data. At first, they may reject to declare unscientific, inaccurate, accusing researchers of dishonesty, announcing that he's mad - Einstein, for example, was called a madman, and his ideas at the time understood the strength of six people. Next there is a crisis, during which appear more and more daring alternatives that provide answers to these new questions, and eventually taken one of them, which becomes the leading paradigm for the next period.

We are talking about a major paradigm shift, not about any particular. We say that consciousness is at least of equal matter, if not surpasses it in importance. I, for example, is much easier to believe that the material world is a kind of virtual reality, a certain arrangement of different experiences than to believe that the matter could give rise to the phenomenon of consciousness - this is ridiculous. However, this belief exists, and it is very deeply rooted, so to reject it will take a lot of time and a large number of observations.

You can give some interesting examples. For example, at the turn of XIX-XX centuries, Lord Kelvin said that all the discoveries in physics have been made more open nothing, it remains only to improve accuracy. It was five years before the discovery of Einstein. Darwin said of opponents to his theory, that is to wait until die out the older generation, the younger generation of his theories seem more acceptable, and the older generation are too attached to the old paradigm in which to learn, which published the book, which had competence in the various fields . And it is difficult to admit that they have something misunderstood.

- Generations follow each other, but we have created such school system, which do not develop the person as he is, that focus more on what to teach him to obey orders to act in the framework of religious or economic structures. Henry Ford remarked that a creative or intuitive knowledge provides little narrow practical use, so he promoted the modern approach to education, which zombiruet people to fulfill orders, showed punctuality, remained in the system, adapt to it, etc. The modern school system - is a virtual lobotomy schoolchildren are taught comply in order not to be spewed into the outer darkness, beyond society. What could you give advice to parents, families, how to welcome and support children who come into this world, and facing it with such an aggressive system of brainwashing?

- For the whole it recognized that the foundations of personality are laid in infancy and childhood. However, the discoveries we have made, and which relate to the field of perinatal - is something completely new. This mention Otto Rank, but only during the work with holotropic states, we could see the perinatal material in an unprecedentedly huge volume. It became also understands the importance of the prenatal period. With these discoveries was established Association of prenatal and perinatal psychology, which holds annual conferences, international conferences, gathering of obstetricians and gynecologists, child psychiatrists and other professionals working in this field. Currently no obvious need care pregnancy, that is the need for accurate situation, proper environment for the pregnant woman. Manhattan, for example, with its cars and noise - certainly not something that should be pregnant. Nature is not provided, so the environment there is just something about a hundred years, and biology is much like Tyrannosaurus in an airplane, it is wild and strange. I would have preferred for pregnant women are not a big city, a beautiful place surrounded by nature. In communist Czechoslovakia had to work for women during pregnancy, maternity leave because it was very short. Pregnant women working in factories, working with heavy equipment, and it's not the best situation for them.

Now there is the concept of natural parenthood; Water has been a pioneer of sorts Igor Charkovsky, but some aspects of his work, for example, linking hands, pronyrivanie newborns, many caused antagonism. Ideas Charkovsky in a softer format developed, in particular, Michel Odent, in whose clinic woman could give birth with her husband, with no glare, no loud noise. The situation in childbirth is extremely important. In one of his books Michelle Oden connects aggressiveness and love of the circumstances of birth. The labor involved two groups of hormones, one - a stress hormone, catecholamines, epinephrine, norepinephrine, they are connected with the fact that childbirth in the open country could, for example, attracts predators, respectively, a person has such alarm. Another group of hormones are also important from the point of view of evolution - those hormones which provide bonding between parent and child, it is important for the survival of offspring. This endorphins, prolactin and another hormone. Michel Odent says that the hospital can be created for new mothers a quiet and peaceful environment, and in this case will be dominated by bonding, but if a woman gives birth to the noise, bright lights, and medical students, it activates the catecholamines, in the first case, the child line up loving relationships with others, and in the second - the feeling of a hostile world in which you need to be constantly on the alert. And, of course, is absolutely essential physical contact, that is called anaclitic satisfaction. It should be breastfeeding, contact with the mother, a loving atmosphere. Parents, to create it, you need before you become parents, first to work out some of their own problems because they - like the curse is passed from one generation to another.

If the parents themselves were abused as a child, if they are hard to be good parents, they can help to rites of passage, some private work, which will be preceded by a family. And then - the birth of children, breastfeeding, natural physical contact. In the US, women are often so zazombirovany that prefer to feed their children an artificial mixture, because it is "scientific"! Therefore it is very important how the people will come to this world. It is also important to the society in which they come, it was responsible. You see, one of the difficulties faced by people who have done any significant work with holotropic states, since the sixties, when it all happened spontaneously and quite mad - is the lack of supportive context. For example, if you live in the Huichol Indian tribe, and you participate in the ritual of transition using peyote, the living experiences that bring you to the tribe because it confirms the philosophy, mythology, the psychology of the tribe. The Europeans and the Americans who survived a similar experience, come to the system of values, which does not correspond to the way their culture lives. Well, for example, "no - war", "Make Love, Not War", "fall out of the system."

I do not want to live in a world that is destroying the nature in which the murder is considered an acceptable form of problem solving. Let us accept the Constitution, which would protect life! That is, this system of values ​​completely contrary to the philosophy of industrial civilization, which ultimately destructive and self-destructive. That is, mankind is moving toward suicide, ruthlessly exploiting non-renewable natural resources, pumping oil and polluting the environment, thus creating a threat to our biological survival. And wrong to think that it can happen in thirty, fifty or a hundred years, because we impose a linear process, which is to be cyclical, nature is always updated, nature does not produce anything that could not be destroyed. And we must not produce that can not be recycled, which is not recycled. Cyclical nature of life, and if you try to make it linear, then sooner or later we will face problems.

P.S. And remember, just by changing your mind - together we are changing the world!

Source http://theoryandpractice.ru